Genesis

1 - I’d never looked at stealing as more than just a common criminal activity resulting in the loss of STUFF. But if taken to a different level even not eating right and exercising, not using our talents, even just having a bad attitude could be stealing. We rob ourselves of time; we rob each other of joy – could this lack of care all-around be breaking this commandment? It’s easy to just write-off these small things but perhaps they are just as wrong?

My brother’s car was broken into last week. They stole his Ipod and some other trivial stuff. He said that what bothered him more than losing his stuff, was that someone could stoop so low and now every time he hears a sound outside he’s wondering if its another person looking to steal again. What’s so different between that and losing faith that even the small things you can do, won’t improve the world we live in?

Seems to me again to be a matter of choice – choosing to care, choosing to take the road of integrity, choosing to be the positive influence. The challenge for me is caring enough to make the effort.
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2 - I was thinking during the sermon that parents can also steal from their children. By showing them that God is very important when it's convient and not important when we are to tired to get up for church, to busy with work, to busy partying, to anything that is deemed more important than showing them we love God above all. We are stealing from them the lesson of a relationship with the Lord comes before all! This also goes back to the " Do you love me more than the things you love" question. (Comment this)

3 - Stealing to which degree?

As I was listening to the sermon, I was wondering if we weren't overextending the word stealing. In a way, everything that is sin (or is generally bad) can be thought of as having roots in stealing. Is talking on your cell phone while driving considered stealing someone's safety? Is not having a carbon monoxide detector potentially stealing from the well being of your family? Where does the word stealing end?

I'm more inclined to think of stealing in the context of things or intellectual property and the word begins to lose meaning for me when it’s expanded to include concepts. For example, is it possible to steal time? Figuratively, but it’s not possible in reality. It’s more like an “opportunity cost” in that sense. Is the expanded definition of stealing what God meant/said? I'd be interested to hear what the actually word means in the original text, as I could be off base on that….

As to the modern day meaning of stealing, I started thinking about how this commandment is shaped by culture and wondered if anyone can even figure out what it means anymore. For example, is it stealing to record a song off the radio and play it somewhere else? If the RIAA had their way, it would be! Is it stealing to record the Vikings win over Green Bay and replay that for all your friends? I’m not even sure anymore…. Who decides what stealing is? (laws, owners of the property, general consensus…)

Don’t get me wrong. I think that downloading music from the internet or copying a CD is stealing (as defined by law) but what about other methods of getting music without paying, like recording from the radio? Is this all about the green?
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4 - Great comments! I struggled with many things when preparing this sermon on "you shall not steal." As Tim asked in the blog, "Where does the word stealing end?"

In my research on this topic, the internet (especially Christian music companies) had a great deal of information on stealing music. The whole premise of stealing music is based on the word, "copyrighted". Now what does copyrighted mean? Well, if you go to http://www.cmta.com/brochure.htm you will learn what "copyright" means? Here is what is says.

“Copyright” is a term of intellectual property law that prohibits the unauthorized duplication, adaptation or distribution of a creative work. In the recording industry, there are usually two copyrighted works involved:

The copyright in the musical composition, i.e. the actual lyrics and notes on paper. This is usually owned by the songwriter or music publisher.
The copyright in the sound recording, i.e. the recording of the performer singing or playing a given song. This is usually owned by the record company.

So when lyrics and music are copyrighted, they are property of the musician. When we break copyright laws, then we are "illegally" taking the property of the artist.

So what can we say about taping a Vikings game and then showing to your friends (without gaining any financial profet)? How would you answer this question? Where does the act of "stealing" end?

Vicar Matthew (Comment this)

5 - Vicar Matthew, tanks for the response! I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks too but since you asked about broadcasting the Vikings, I'll throw my 2 cents in (again).

I found this blurb on the Saints web site. It says: Due to NFL broadcast regulations, a particular game is shown on network television just one time. Clubs are not allowed to make or sell video tapes of games for the general public.

Given that restriction, one could argue that a group of football fans watching the repeat of a Saints game is a club but maybe, just maybe, one person capturing the game on Tivo is allowed. I'm not sure but no one I know has been arrested… If you recorded the game and played it back in a public place, that would definitely be a club.

Honestly, I think that the licensing is out of control, as some groups tend to assume more control over intellectual property that I think they legally have and aren't afraid to exercise this control in license agreements, turning most people into convicts. For example, if copyright means "unauthorized duplication", I would suspect that some groups (RIAA) would interpret that to mean unauthorized recording from any source, even radio. After all, I don't have [insert group name here]'s permission to record a song from the radio. Can anyone remember the day it became illegal to record a song from the radio and play it somewhere else?

I also read that in France, there is a copyright law that applies to taking photographs of the Effiel Tower because the city copyrighted a night time lighting designing and therefore own the copyright to all photos of the Effiel tower taken with the lighting scheme (thereby earning rolaties). From the Eiffel Tower faq page:

Q : Is the publishing of a photo of the Eiffel Tower permitted?
A : There are no restrictions on publishing a picture of the Tower by day. Photos taken at night when the lights are aglow are subjected to copyright laws, and fees for the right to publish must be paid to the SNTE.

In the end, we are obligated to follow the laws and not following the copyright agreements are stealing. Sometimes it's easy to figure out if it's stealing, sometimes not. Should this be an excuse? No, but companies aren't making it easier with the ever increasing restrictions on use.

Good information on the meaning in Hebrew of 10 commandments, although I have no idea how true this is (going back to my original idea of looking deeper into the word origins).
http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html

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6 - Good question - what did God mean when he wrote thou shall not steal? Where does stealing end? Is it right to even want to "redefine" these in today's society or are we going too far to try to apply the commandment to "concepts" instead of physical things?

Pastor Dean's sermon example yesterday of stealing from your employer if you come in late or leave early (mindsweeper anyone?) - I thought about that and it just sort of spiraled out of control with the list above. I too wondered if I was taking the command a bit out of context?

We've been talking about copyrighting at work recently and I've been battling with the idea on whether linking to sites or posting articles on our internal site is an infrigement of copyright. (I've been using the US Copyright Office definitions as the standard in my arguments www.copyright.gov however there are still a bunch of people arguing that if what we are creating is for the greater good of education, how could it be wrong?)

The NFL has that whole spiel they say near the end of the game about rebroadcasting games - are they really going to come after my friend Brian who likes to rewatch Packer games for years and years.

So does anyone know exactly the definition God meant? And maybe Tim does have a great point - who decides what stealing is in this day and age?

On the other hand, if I use the commands as a basis to help define how I live and who I am, is it really that bad of an idea to take this far out and become more aware that actions have consequences and try and take the higher road whenever possible? (Comment this)

7 - I think its always been illegal to record a song from the radio and replay it somewhere else without permission. Did I do it - yep, in fact that was how I got most of the music I listened to in junior high and high school. Did I think about whether it was wrong? Nope.

Can I justify in my head that I really didn't hurt the artist or the publisher by recording the song off the radio - Sure. Was it wrong? Probably.

Hmmm how far can we take this - Was it stealing to show The Scream on a powerpoint slide?

From what I've read on copyright law which is somewhat frightening - a commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony. How is value determined and if you extend it to rebroadcasting Vikings football games in your home and you skip over or fast forward through the commercials are you stealing? (Comment this)

8 - I have to say, this blog has been very interesting this week!

I agree with the anonymous poster's sentiment reflecting on how far stealing goes and that the topic of stealing has meandered into an unsually specific depth. I think that's where I struggle. I don't know what all the rules around "stealing" but the standard nonetheless is that stealing in all forms is unacceptable.

I liked Tina's comments about doing the best you can to obey. I want to hear more about what people think regarding where the definition of stealing ends. In your opinion, does stealing include the notion of stealing time or affection? (Comment this)

9 - Googling the topic "stealing" I ran across this article, more biblical reference and captures a bit more eloquently some of what I've been thinking about since Sunday. The article can be found at
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=155 (Comment this)

10 - I really liked the article. Overall, it was well thought out and presented some very good points about stealing but in my opinion, it gets too inclusive. They mentioned the concept of stealing time at work, whcih does happen, but if you are an exempt employee, can you steal time, as your job is not time based. What if you stay up too late are are only 90% productive the next day? Is that stealing?

There are numerous other examples in the article.

Maybe we all steal more than we know! I'm starting to think that stealing is everywhere, if you make technical interpretations of stealing. I think we should be open to hearing God's word and follow that. What about the passage in the new testament which says that certain actions that are sins for some people are not sins for another, depending on if the person taking the action believes they are a sin? Can that be applied?

Also, just a clarification...

I think that it is legal to record a song from a radio station for personal use based on the Audio Home Recording Act (passed in 1992). I only mention it as further evidence of how confusing laws are...

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17_10_10.html

This act allows you to make a copy of an audio recording, even if you don’t own the original recording, as long as it is for non-commercial use. It also requires manufacturers and importers of digital recorders and blank media to make royalty payments to compensate artists and copyright owners for lost royalties due to home taping. These payments are deposited to the U.S. Copyright Office and distribution of the royalties to eligible claimants, including recording artists and record companies, is administered by the Copyright Office.
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