Genesis

1 - I guess I have a deep question. What signifigance does baptism play in our salvation? Is it neccessary for salvation? (Comment this)

2 - I for one have never understood the neccessity of being baptized as an infant. How can an infant understand the significance of baptism? I think a person has to come to baptism on their own as one excepts Christ they feel the need to come to baptism for as an outward sign/act of the cleansing that has taken place in us as we receive Christ. Anyway, I don't think baptism in it's self saves. I think it's what takes place on the inside that saves... kind of like the thief on the cross, I doubt he was baptised (Comment this)

3 - Sue, I think it might be helpful to take a step back and talk about how someone comes to salvation and claims Jesus as Lord. I think the whole idea of someone making a choice to believe is a little perverted in the fact it makes justification a two party deal. (meaning first God did his part by sending Jesus and now we have to do our part by using our own reason and strength to believe him). Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." The Bible is clear that we are spiritiually dead and the only way we can come to saving faith is through the gift of his Grace. I Cor 12:3 "No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit"(I know I have trouble with this, in that I have a tough time making rational sense of the fact that God can give the gift to some and not all.) This is were new theologies have popped up to explain the perceived inconsistencies. But the fact is we know the Bible says God wants to save all and we know that grace isnt something we have any part in creating. So I dont try to bridge the gap I just let God be God on this one.
As far as infant baptism goes...we know God Commands baptism and that we dont come to salvation because on anything "inside us" so what a magnificent gift from God it is to create faith in an infant. If you have time check out this sermon I recently ran across on infant baptism http://paulmccain.worldmagblog.com/paulmccain/archives/016674.html#more
Peace (Comment this)

4 - Baptism is a hard one to understand. Lutherans have been practicing infant baptism for years on the Biblical stance of what I would call, "better safe than sorry". With weak scriptural support they have said that because it is God's working in us that saves us, not what we do. I have to admit that I personally stuggle with whether a baby must be baptized. There are no scriptural references to babies being baptized other than vague references to families being baptized together.

I have often wondered if real baptism is, as I've heard Ben say, the changing of the heart and it really doesn't matter if there is water and words spoken. Just imagine if everytime you read about Baptism in the Bible you replaced it with the words, "heart changed". If it really is more about the heart being washed clean and that is God's action, why do we put so much emphasis on what we do. I do love the visual representation. The old and evil is drowned and the new arises out of the water.

Just some random thoughts. (Comment this)

5 - I've often thought you do everything else in your power to protect and love and cherish that child, why not also make an effort to choose a life for them that is blessed by the holy spirit?

Another question I've pondered though...If a child is baptized as an infant and at a young age chooses to turn their back on God are they mature enough to be responsible for their actions? (Comment this)

6 - Its not just Lutherans that practice infant baptism - Its somewhere around 75% of Christendom. The whole "decision theology" and "age of accountabliity" are a relatively new way of thinking. If you look at some of the writings of the ealry church (Polycarp, Origen, Cyprian) infant baptism was the norm. There are many instances in the Bible where entire households were baptized - I find it hard to believe that infant baptism was something invented by man sometime between 60- 150AD. (Comment this)

7 - I have read what everyone has written but I don't know if it really gets at the heart of the question... is infant baptism a saving grace. I mean it's kind of like baptizing some who is mentally handicapped if you will. Do they really know what is happening (depending upon their individual awareness) Can they say yes I understand what is happening here. I don't believe they can. I think it is like that with infants. Though we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God... even infants, we all deserve death. But I believe that Jesus died for their sins as well and for the sins of those who can't make the decision for themselves. So I guess I am thinking until the age of decision... and only God knows when that is we have to be under His Grace. So to me... infant baptism is more a dedication by the parents to say they will bring that child up in Christ until the child is old enough to make that decision on their own. (Comment this)

8 - I have been reading this whole conversation with interest... I too wonder at infant baptism. I am thinking though baptism is important... I too get the feeling that the act is not life saving in itself. As the example was given.. the thief on the cross. I think it must be an outward sign that a Christian family took... whole families were baptized... but I feel those who understood did it as an outward sign of what had already taken place in their hearts, while parents did it as a dedication to raise their young children in the same tradition and belief. (Comment this)

9 - I agree with you Terri. Baptism is what God does. What we do with water is something that God works through but not the changing of a heart. (Comment this)

10 - Why do you limit the power of God to work through baptism? Gods action always precedes the existence of faith. When you talk about "age of accountability" and "making a decision" you are perverting the Gospel by making your salvation a joint effort between you and God. None of us can come to God using our own power - Adults, infants, mentally handicapped, only the Holy Spirit can create faith. http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/journals/shuta.htm (Comment this)